Home Made Ring Roller, and first attempts at bronze brazing.
by John
The two projects for which I am currently accumulating materials, will require rolling copper sheet and rod into circular shapes.
A few years back I made a ring roller to make components for steel gates, and it would have been perfect for rolling the copper foundation rings and fireboxes.
It is fairly heavy duty roller, powered by a 1/2 HP motor, geared down 1:40. I have bent mild steel up to 1/2″ thick 4″ wide, but I founds its limits when I tried to bend some hardened rod. It left some grooves in the rollers. And those grooves would imprint marks into the soft copper, which would be totally unacceptable in the two boiler projects.
So yesterday I disassembled the machine, removed the rollers, and turned the rolling surfaces in the lathe until the grooves vanished. The 31.75mm diameter finished at 30.4mm. Nice and regular and smooth. And working smoothly again.
Pretty mundane stuff eh? But oddly satisfying.
BRONZE BRAZING
And after that I tried my hand at bronze brazing joins in copper parts. The boiler inspector requires that certain joins in the boilers use bronze brazing, instead of silver soldering. I am now reasonably proficient with silver soldering, and had no experience with bronze brazing. So, do I try to learn a new skill and use it on my expensive copper components of the boilers? Or do I pay an expert to do the bronze brazing for me?
Well, I decided to buy some bronze rods and flux, and give the bronze brazing a try on some copper scrap. The AMBSC boiler code requires the use of Tobin bronze. Local welding suppliers had never heard of it, but I found a supplier on ebay.
Tobin bronze is another name for Naval Bronze. (according to my quick Internet “research”). It is relatively resistant to corrosion, and very strong. Actually much stronger than silver solder and with a much higher melting point. Silver solder is said to be as strong as the parent metal, so bronze must be awesome. Bronze will fill gaps, indeed a V gap is desireable, wheras silver solder prefers an even, tiny space which the solder fills by capillary action.
The brazing rods are available in diameters 1.6, 2.4, and 3.2mm. I had no idea which size would be best, so I bought 1.6 and 2.4mm. I also bought some 303 flux powder, even though some experts say that flux is not necessary. OK, lots to learn. (p.s. flux IS necessary. )
So, onto YouTube, and watching multiple tutorials on bronze brazing copper. I reckon that YouTube is fantastic for learning new skills.
With silver soldering, the solder goes to the areas which are fluxed. But, it seems that when bronze brazing, the bronze follows the heat, so the application of heat is critical. And not just where the heat is applied, but how much. The thing is, that the parent metal is not melted in either process (unlike welding). When bronze brazing copper the temperature range between succesful brazing and melting the parent metal (which means disaster) is quite narrow (about 100ºc), and the brazing temperature is about 950ºc, so it is tricky.
And copper is an excellent heat conductor, so the heat spreads rapidly through the parent metal, with result that the bronze filler spreads and it is difficult to get a good appearance.
Here are the results of my first efforts.

The copper is 3mm thick. The bronze filler is not pretty, but this is my first ever effort. I discovered that you cannot actually see the molten puddle until you have moved on a bit, and by then it is easy to have applied too much filler.

I cut across the join to check the adequacy of the brazed join. I was quite pleased to see that there were no gaps or voids. Also, although the bronze filler looks ugly on the surface, it is actually fairly flat, and should be insignificant when painted. You can see the V which was prepared in the edges of the join.

Next I tried an angle join. Looks neater, but not enough bronze filler at one end. USB for scale.
OK, looking promising, but what about thin copper? Will that just melt away? By the way, my heat source is oxy-acetylene. I tried MAP gas with air, but got nowhere near enough heat. Oxy-acetylene burns at 3500ºc and copper melts at 1083ºc so it is not difficult to end up with an ugly, expensive blob of copper and bronze.

This is 1/4″ pipe with a 0.7mm wall. No problemo.

and the final test for the day was end joining the 1/4″ pipe. The hardest aspect was holding them in position. Quite happy with this.
I tried both 1.6 and 2.4mm bronze filler rod diameters, and for this scale job I preferred the 1.6mm. The joins were significantly lumpier with the 2.4mm.
So, with a bit more practice I think that I might be able to bronze braze where necessary on the vertical boiler and the Trevithic dredger engine.
P.S. Those readers who know about brazing will get a laugh. I did the brazing without dark glasses! None of the tutorials mentioned that dark glasses allow you to see what is happening in the molten puddle. I found out about dark glasses at my model engineering club club meeting last night. John.
Hi John
Where did you get the plans for the ring roller.?
Cheers Martin
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Hi Martin, I designed it around bits which I had in my junk. It is actually very simple. I could put some basic measurements together if you are interested. John
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I appreciate the offer John, For me it is one if those tools that would come in handy, but at the moment I have too many things to contend with besides making the rollers.
I thought the design may have come off of a YouTube Video.
Maybe their is other who maybe interested.
By the way (it’s a long time since I did bronze brazing of copper) but from memory you need to keep the flame moving, and unless your brazing all the time/regularly, and it’s always a good idea to do even a quick practice on some scrap (to check the flame size etc) rather than buggering up the job at hand.
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You are intrepid! I’ve done quite a bit of welding, soldering and brazing over the years and enjoyed it immensely when I wasn’t catching on fire or sick with zinc poisoning (that was a nasty lesson). I love getting into the rhythm of pushing the puddle along with that gentle circular movement of flame and dipping of the rod which becomes a meditative experience of sorts until one’s eyes can’t take it any more. I’ve spent much of my life looking into flames and still do. Go for it!
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Zinc poisoning! Tell me more.
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Mine came from welding galvanized steel.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_fume_fever
I was gas welding sheet metal under my MGZB and became overwhelmed with nausea. Turned off the gas and air and collapsed on the ground writhing in pain, short of breath, unable to yell for assistance. My girlfriend found me and a neighbor and her helped me get up to our 3rd floor apartment. Felt awful for a couple of days.
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Gday John
I suggest that you try TIG for your bronze brazing. I have an el cheapo tig (that also does plasma cutting). No flux needed. You can use the same Tobin rods.
Russ
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Thanks Russell, I wil try that, but not for my boiler projects. TIG is specifically banned for some reason. John
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As for zinc poisoning- the zinc burns off as a white zinc oxide smoke. Causes a flu-like respiratory irritation. Lots of belief in the internetosphere that it is a dire problem, but little proper evidence that it causes long term damage.
Lead, nickel and cadmium fumes are a nastier issue
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I will look them up in my rather dusty medical books. (I was a medico until I retired 3-4 years ago) John
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